FTG 0015 - Making the Most of Mentoring with Attorney Kathryn Pruss Zeltwanger ‘98 and Law Student Kathryn Czekalski ‘17


This episode is both for any Scholar looking into a legal career AND for Scholars – or Scholar alumni – who want to learn more on the why and how of mentoring with two alumnae who have been mentor and mentee for several years.

Guest Bios:

Kathryn (Kat) Pruss Zeltwanger ‘98 Lib is the Deputy General Counsel at the Armstrong Group in Butler, Pennsylvania. In that role she oversees all of the legal work for four of the company's eight operating groups, handles the employment work for all of the operating groups, manages the litigation for six of the operating groups, and manages the legal group. Before joining the Armstrong Group in 2009, Kat clerked for a Common Pleas judge in Fayette County and worked as an associate attorney in the Pittsburgh office of Fox Rothschild. Kat earned a B.A. in Letters, Arts, and Sciences, with Honors from Penn State’s College of the Liberal Arts in 1998. She also earned her JD from Pitt Law in 2004. Kat currently serves as the Vice-President of the Scholar Alumni Society.

Kathryn (Kate) Czekalski ‘17 Eng is a 3L at Duquesne University School of Law in Pittsburgh, where she spent the Summer of 2021 in Dinsmore & Shohl's intellectual property practice group learning the ins and outs of patent prosecution. She will be returning to Dinsmore after graduation and the Pennsylvania bar exam. Before attending law school, she previously worked in the oil and gas industry as an engineer servicing various refineries in the Northeast US and Canada. She earned a B.S. in Chemical Engineering with Honors in English from Penn State’s College of Engineering in 2017. She is happy to speak further about the transition from a technical field to the practice of law. Please feel free to connect with her on LinkedIn or email.

Episode Specifics:

In this episode, Kat and Kate share their insights and perspectives on:

· Finding your community as a Scholar coming to University Park from a small high school

· The importance of SHO TIME for new first-year Scholars

· Majoring in one discipline, and completing a thesis in a completely different discipline

· Taking a gap year – or three – between undergraduate and law school

· Understanding the investment of time and money to pursue law school

· Utilizing resources like career services

· Beginning to form mentoring relationships

· How to be a mentee and how to be a mentor

· The value of mentorship for students – and for the mentor

· How to set yourself up for success in law school and the importance of self-discipline from a 3L and a practicing attorney

· Thinking outside the box and having a plan for using a JD

· Lessons learned and finding personally meaningful balance as a lawyer or law student


Schreyer Honors College Links:






Upcoming Events

• Scholars – Need Assistance? Book an Appointment!

• Alumni – Learn Why and How to Volunteer

Make a Gift to Benefit Schreyer Scholars

• Join the Penn State Alumni Association


Credits & Notes:

This content is available in text form here.

This show is hosted, produced, and edited by Sean Goheen ‘11 Lib (Schreyer).

The artwork was created by Tom Harrington, the College’s Web Developer.

The sound effect is “Chinese Gong,” accessed via SoundBible used under Creative Commons License.

The theme music is “Conquest” by Geovane Bruno, accessed via Pixabay and used under Creative Commons License.

Greeting scholars and welcome to following the Gong, a podcast of the Shire Honors College at Penn State. Following the gone takes you inside conversations with our scholar alumni to hear their story so you can gain career in life advice and it spanned your professional network. You can hear the true bread of how schollar alumni have gone on to shape the world after they rind the gone and graduated with honors, and learn from their experiences so you can use their insights in your own journey. This show is proudly sponsored by the Scholar Alumni Society, a constituent group of the Penn State Alumni Association. I'm your host, Shawn Goheen, class of two thousand and eleven and college staff member. If this is your first time joining us, welcome. If you're a regular listener, welcome back. This episode is for any scholar looking into a legal career and for scholars or scholar alumni who want to learn more on the why and how mentoring with two alumni who have been mentor menty for several years. Catherine Press Zeltloger, or cat, is the deputy General Council at the Armshaan Group and Butler Pennsylvania. In that role, she oversees all of the legal work for for the companies eight operating groups, handles the employment work for all of the operating groups, manages the litigation for six of those groups and manages the legal group. Before joining the Armshaan group in two thousand and nine, cat clerked for a common please judge in Fayette County and worked as an associate attorney in the Pittsburg Office of Fox Roth Child. Cat earned a BEA and letters arts and sciences with honors from Penn State's College of the Liberal Arts in one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight. She also earned her jd from pit law in two thousand and four. Cat currently serves as the vice president of the scholar Al on my society. Catherine Chikolski, or Kate, is a l at Du Kane University School of law in Pittsburd where she spent the summer of two thousand and twenty one and dinsmore and scholls intellectual property practice group learning the INS and outs of patent prosecution. She will returning to didn's Moore after graduation in the Pennsylvania Bards am before attending the law school, she previously worked in the oil and gas industry as an engineer servicing various refineries in the northeast, U S and Canada. She earned a BS and chemical engineering with honors in English from Penn State's college engineering in two thousand and seventeen. She's happy to speak further about the transition from a technical field to the practice of law. Please feel free to connect with her on linkedin or email. In this episode, Cat and Kate share their insights and perspectives on finding your community as a scholar, coming university park from a small high school, the importance of showtime for new first year scholars majoring in one discipline and completing a thesis in a completely different one, taking a gap year or three between undergraduate and law school, understanding the investment of time and money to pursue law school, utilizing resources like career services, beginning to form mentoring relationships, how to be a mentee and how to be a mentor, the value of mentorship for students and for the mentor, how to set yourself up for success in law school and the importance of selfdiscipline for the three l and a practicing attorney thinking outside the box and having a plan for using your jd and lessons learned and finding personally meaningful balance as a lawyer and law student. Now let's dive into our conversation with cat and kate following the Gong. Cat, Kate, thank you both so much for joining me here today on following the gone this is our first episode for the Spring Two Thousand and twenty two semester. Kind of kick things off with a conversation today really focused on mentoring. So I'm very excited to have you both here. When I start at the beginning, as always, cat, can you tell us how you first got to Penn State and the Shuire Honors College in a little bit about your experience as a scholar? Sure, so. I grew up in center county, so of course did not want to be at Penn State. No Center County kid does. But frankly, they gave me so much money I could not go there. So you know, that's...

...how I ended up at Penn State. I got scholarships and when you're paying for school all on your own, scholarships is really the key to everything. As for the Honors College, it was the university scholars program at the time, Mr Fire had not given their gift yet. I had heard about that program a couple of years prior to entering university I went to a summer program on Penn State's campus. It was a governor's School of Excellence for Agricultural Sciences. There used to be six or seven of US governor schools. I'm not sure any of them exist anymore, but it was a really cool program. A lot of the counselors who were there handling all of us sixteen and Seventeen year old idiots were from the honors program and so they talked about it all the time like it was the greatest thing ever. And so I applied to the program and I got in and that was that's how I got there. So my experience at Schreier, current with the USP at the time, was great. I'm not sure I would have survived college without it. Kind of having come from such a tiny high school, showing up on Pennsas campus, where, I mean honestly, I had classes that were bigger than my whole high school, was crazy. I don't know that I would have made it. So being in the Honors Program Gam you want the opportunity to have smaller classes, opportunities to meet professors that I wouldn't have met otherwise, opportunities to really get to know the professor's I don't think I would have had in big classes, and it let me find my tribe right and so when you're one of the smart kids at one of those tiny schools, you're kind of alone and moving into the honors Doorm I was like, Oh, these are my people, this is great. And so Atherton was just an amazing experience. And then can you tell us a little bit about what you majored in and then also some of your outside of the classroom opportunities that you were able to create, opportunities for leadership and civic engagement? Yeah, so I swished majors I think four times, starting out in biology and I ended up in what's a major called letters arts and sciences. That at that program let's you sort of build your own lador. So I effectively double majored in political science and sociology without actually having to take twice the classes. It also allowed me to find a like a really niche focus in that, and so I did public policy and demographics specifically, which meant I could study what I wanted to study and I didn't have to do all the born stuff I didn't want to look at. It also allowed me the opportunity to travel abroad and take those classes and put them towards my major, and so that gave me a lot of flexibility there, although I did my honors work in theater arts. I'm sorry, what was the Second Party of question? On my outside activities. So mostly my outside activities and revolved around no refund theater, which I think is still there. So the class ahead of me there were a couple of folks who did play called the Martian carnivals and got a little bit of air quotes, your notoriety, from the administration at the honors program at that time, and then my freshman year we did several more plays in the honors program gave us a hundred dollars and gave us the keys to gate and the gates in the basement of Atherten and gave us that as our practice room. And that's how we got rolling. We took our hundred bucks and we went dumpster driving behind Eisenhower and we bought some paint and let play that. That's it. And so we would build our own sets and we built all of our own lights and we were allowed to perform in the forum. I'm not sure where they're performing these days. We performed in the forum and we would do shakespeare, Greek plays and stuff that we didn't have to pay world cies on, and then we started writing our own stuff and there were a lot of us that did our major DC's by writing plays. Were Directing plays to that program. That sounds like a lot of fun. I remember going to no refund theater shows when I was a student. I'm pretty sure they're still around. So a great legacy that you helped build. Their cat for a group like many of our groups on campus that have been around for decades, and I think that's really cool. Now, Kate, what about your story? How did you end up at Penn State and in the Honors College? So my...

...experience was similar to cats. I went to a smaller high school in Western PA and I actually didn't even know about the honors college until I took a trip up to campus. I remember it was like my junior year of high school and I was with my my aunt and she took me up to visit the campus because she was actually a pennsate alumna and they handed us all of these like pamphlets when we were sitting, I don't even remember. It was probably somewhere in East Hall's and they're like Oh, like there's this program called Shryer and like if you want to apply, like it's really great, and I remember thinking, yeah, I'm not going to get into that, and so I I kind of brushed it aside. But then a girl at my high school who was a year older than me ended up getting in and she talked about it a little bit and I interest me and I asked her advice about how to apply and how to get in and I ended up applying and ended up getting in, which I still remember that and I still remember how shocked I was. And I was even more shocked when I got to campus and realize, like all of the people that were in the honors college just like how amazing they were. Like I remember there was a girl who'd like one of Nobel peace bries or something like that. Was Amazing. Just being in like the company of just people who are really academically credentialed but also like worldly. was new for me because I was from a ninety nine percent white you know, Rural County, kind of like cat so that was really great. And then I really enjoyed my time at trier I. That was where I met most of my close friends and that was how I kind of felt comfortable. Not to just completely copycats story, but like I was very sad when I got to campus because I missed my family. I had never lived away from home and I never really had like, I guess, experience like the kind of loneliness that comes being surrounded by like thousands of people that you don't know and Shry I really made that difference for me, especially the first night. They do this. I don't know if they still do it, but it's called showtime. Yeah, showtime was really great that they had like this huge crowd of people that was just like clapping along with you, and it was I mean it just made me feel like I was welcome and I remember like this giant Walk Paper Scissors Tournament and that was really fun. I still remember that. And you meet like your first college buddy and the person who I met is like we stay in touch, so that's kind of Nice. It's so it was just really a great way to to ease into campus and to feel more comfortable in a huge place that is pin state, but while being surrounded by people that you know are kind of like you but also different. Well, I'm sure Donna Meyer, our director student programs, would love to hear that about showtime. We still do that. It's a great experience for our scholars. It's looked a little bit different in past few years with the coronavirus pandemic, but still going strong. I'm glad to hear that that has made a lasting influence on you and your friendships. Now, Kate, I want to stick with you for another minute here. You listen that you are a chemical engineering major and you had an interesting explanation for why you pursued stem. But if you're reading the episode description, you know that, Kate, you're in law school. So we'll get to that in a moment. But I want to know how you came to Pick Cam e as your major. But you also didn't write your thesis in Kem e, so tell us about that. The reason I picked Kemy was because it was the only engineering major that didn't require upper level physics classes and I was not very good at physics. To twelve, I think, was the class of physics to eleven. I can't remember, but that was like my first semester of college and it was my first see that I ever got. So Shire people, if you're listening, it's okay to good seas like C's still get degrees, but yeah, it was. It was a huge problem for me. I...

...was very overwhelmed with that and I sat down with my mom and we look through all of like the course descriptions for every single major and I was like this is the one I got a pick because I can't, I can't pass these other classes. And also I love chemistry. My both of my parents are chemistry majors in college and I grew up with like periodic table place mats, which is kind of weird, but you know, I really, I really liked chemistry. So I thought why not do Kenny? And as far as the thesis goes, I was always interested in writing. I wanted to be an English major, but my dad would not let me major in libbial arts. I wish he would have, but I might not be here today, so whatever. But I always wanted to do writing and I decided to do in English minor to kind of get what I wanted out of college in terms of like the libbial arts perspective, and I think I asked somebody like early on, do I have to do research if I'm going to be an engineering major, to do my thesis, and they're like no, which I was really grateful to hear, because I did not like research. I found it to be very tedious and not really something that I enjoyed and I couldn't see myself doing it for four years. So having the opportunity to explore something else that I really liked, especially with a professor that I grew close to while I was writing my thesis, it was a really great experience and you know, I think it's kind of cool, like Hey, I I'm an engineer, but I wrote like basically three short stories from my thesis, like how it's just crazy, like I love the experience that you can get at try or so that's really cool. I'm glad that you shared that, because a lot of faults to come on here, and rightfully so, share the great experience that they had doing research, especially in the stem fields. That hands on experience. But you know that wasn't going to provide you motivation and you found a creative outlet, which is a great opportunity for scholars, similar to what you did, cat, with writing a play. You wrote Church stories, Kate. So I think that is indicative of the experiences that you can have if you reach out and ask the right questions as a scholar. Another thing that you two have in common, in addition to the fact that either you're an attorney or soon to be a bar past attorney in the coming months, is that neither of you went to law school straight out of undergraduate and I would love to hear your perspectives on why you did that, how you did that and what value you found in delaying that with some perhaps practical, real world experience before going back to law school. So, cat, I'll start with you, and then Kate, same question for you afterwards. Right. So one of the reasons that I change majors so much is that I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up and I frankly, still don't know what I want to be when I grew up, and that's that's okay, no one. You mean you can, you can know and you can have a conviction since you were poor, right, or you can just you know mid s and still not know which want to do with your life. That's either one is fine. But you know, I had kicked around being a lawyer since I was a little kid. I have no idea why. It's not like there's really any one of my family that is a lawyer. I don't I see a movie or a show. I have no idea, but it sounded like a good idea to me, right. And so I went into college thinking I really like biology and so I was going to do that instead, and then I sort of given up a law school dream to the extent that it was a dream to start with, and then kicked around all these other majors room just like I just don't like it. I just just a board. And so I got to my senior year with my demographics and public policy focus, still not really certain what I was going to do with that, and I took an upper level of writing class called brief writing and legal research or something that up back but it was taught by an ad Johns who was a retired litigation partner from Aaron Fox and DC like. The Guy had been in front of the Supreme Court multiple times and...

...really impressed. So really smart man and he and I got to be buddies. And so he took me a lunch one day and it's like what are you doing? So I don't know. I don't know what I want to do. Maybe law school, kind of. He's like, well, look, if you're thinking about law school, that's a big investment. It's a big investment in time, it's a big investment in money and you need to know that you want to be there. Since so you should go work for a law firm for a couple of years a figure out if that's really what you want to do. Okay, well, I had no other plan, so let's just go with that, right. And so I spent that Saturday on the floor of Petea with paper Martindale Hubble manuals. No one will know what those are anymore, but for those of you who are forty and above, paper Martindale ubble manuals. I wrote down the address of every law firm within a few hundred miles of state college, applied to all of them. Got One interview in Baltimore. They hired me, and so I graduated on a Saturday, did my middle ceremony on a Sunday or might have been died, vice versa, and moved on that Sunday to Baltimore and started work on Monday. So I worked as a parallevel for three and a half years before I came back to law school. So the value of that, I think, is immeasurable. I having gone to the law firm and you see what that light is going to be like, but you also get to the point where you're you know, I was training baby lawyers to do their jobs and I'm looking at them going I do this better than you can and you get paid three or four times what I get paid. I'm going back to school. So that's what I did. I really considered going part time to Maryland, University of Maryland and then still working while I was in law school, but again, Pitt gave me a really good scholarship and so that actually made it cheaper for me to move up your pit. So that's where I went. And here I say I have a similar sort of story. I guess so. I while I was in Undergrad it Penn State, I was supposed to stay and do research for my second summer after sophomore year and I didn't want to, but I had no other job lined up and I felt like I had to do something that summer and I was going to stay in State College and do research and then like, I think like three weeks before the school, like the finals week started, there was an email that goes around from shreire that's like jobs, like alumni posting jobs. I can't remember exactly what it is, but the shrine, like the shriire on his college, actually like gives Shire students like a way to apply for certain positions. And Cat cat's company was actually looking for an intern and I had been tossing around the idea of going to law school but I really had like cat I had known in my family as a lawyer. I had no idea what lawyers even did and I was on a stem track, so I had no prior exposure to anything like it. And I saw this posting and I was talking to my roommate and I was like I got to do this, like I got to try. If I get this, I'll just drop out of the lab like so what I want to do this and if I get it, I get it. And I went down and interviewed and I ended up getting the job and I was so happy that I didn't have to do research. I'll summer, but I was also really excited to like get some exposure to what it's like to work in a legal environment and that was a really like great summer. I remember like leaving and going back to school and thinking, like I can definitely like go to law school. I feel like I would be really happy doing this. It's really interesting to me, but I was very overwhelmed with the process of applying and the prospect of not having any money after I graduated was really concerning to me. So I ended up talking to cat about it for a while. I took a job in Texas and I moved there and I had kind of put the like the dream, I guess,...

...of going to law school kind of on the back burner. I was working as an engineer and then I moved to Philly for the same job and I was still working as an engineer and I I didn't really love it. It was interesting and I learned a lot. It was very, very insightful as far as like my field goes. I really enjoyed learning the things I actually it's interesting. I still use like a lot of the knowledge that I learned in that job, even though I'm not an engineer anymore. It's very practical knowledge, and so I about a year and a half and I just decided, you know what, I'm just going to apply, I'm just going to apply and see what happens. And I ended up getting into do Kane with a very significant scholarship, and I knew that I wanted to go back to Pittsburgh. I had applied to like several schools, like probably fifteen or sixteen, but I knew I wanted to go home. I knew I wanted to eventually work in Pittsburgh. So I I just I took it and I ran with it. And I I mean I'm not a lawyer yet, but I'm I'm so happy, even with the covid pandemic at all, I would do it all over again. So Sean to answer the second part of your question, because I'm not sure I did. I think it's super important to take time off between college and Law School, and I preached this all the time. Every time someone comes to me and says, I'm thinking about going to law school, what should I do, I'm like, get a job, get a job before you go to law school. There are, of course, struggles going back as a returning student when you've been an adult treated like an adult, and the professional with a job and paycheck and all that, and you go back to being a student with as sign seating and required attendance and you're like really, I'm not twelve. But by that same token, you know, by the time I had gotten to law school and I've only been out three, three and half years, you know, I bought a car, I got into a fight with the landlord, I had, you know, likes experiences, right, and so when you're sitting in contrast class and they're like well, you're doing this and this and this is an actually contract. I've read contracts, I worked at them, I've seen what they are, I've been involved in them. And then you've got students who have done nothing but be in school and they haven't had those like experiences, and I think it's really invaluable to come into law school with some sort of perspective outside of school. Just to just to echo that, I think as someone who's in school now and had taken to to three years off, I feel the difference between me and my classmates, my classmates who maybe went straight from Undergrad to law school. They're still going to do great and they're still going to be great lawyers. I feel like my experience was just invaluable because I know how to interview, I know how to talk to people in a professional setting, and that is a skill like you don't realize how you know, I cringe at some of the things that I did as like a twenty two year old applicant to certain jobs, of just like why did I say that? And so like knowing that that those practical skills are just so invaluable. And I also think it gives you some perspective on what law school is, because it is a huge time stuck, it is a huge financial investment and even if you're not paying for it and you're lucky, you are taking three years out of your life where you could be earning money. So either way, it's a huge investment and you you need to understand, I guess, that you need to take it seriously. It's not just not that Undergrad is a joke, but you can't skip classes. You can't. It's like a job and having done a job before that, you have a much better perspective on how to treat that and I think it was very, very helpful. I really am glad that I did. I did take a couple of years off. I'm glad that you both kind of talked about what our friends in the economics field would call the opportunity cost of attending law school, that you are not earning, you are spending for those three years, but obviously the returns can be great if you are a really good attorney. So I appreciate...

...that you both pointed that out. Now you both mentioned the value of having that professional experience. In one way that you could probably get that is through an internship. And I want to go back to your internship experience, Kate, because you mentioned that's where you met cat and I want to know how exactly did you to get connected when you were working together, and maybe cat you can explain just briefly what your company actually does, since you are an inhouse council and not at a law firm. And then also how did you piece together that you were both shriyre or in your case, tat, Originally University stollar? How did you figure that out? And you know, just talk about some of that, the serendipitous, organic elements to the beginning of your mentoring relationship. Yeah, so the company that I work for is actually a true conglong right. We have a wildly distinct operating divisions ranging from a cable and Internet company to a China ponder us a restaurants. So you know, it's we're literally all over the place. So the work is extraordinarily diverse and there's a lot of it. It's a pretty small law department. I think at the time that Kate was interned here we had what four attorneys, I think, and I don't know, four or five staff, and so we made a lot of use of college and Law student interns for quite some time. And so the summer that we hired Kate, I can't remember what the specific project was, but we needed bodies to come help us with something, probably some contract management project, and so I called up shryer and said I need two people and they said Okay and sent me two people. So I got kate and another young woman new today high and I put one here and wanted our subsidiary and cranberry, and they helped this all summer long. So that's how we ended up with Shryer in terns and that's how I knew that she was tryer. I specifically looking for fire students because I know the quality of the students that come to that program and I'll give a shameless plug here for Lisa Kurchinski, our director cre development. If you are a scholar listening to this and you haven't connected with her, go ahead and go on the SHCT PSUT appointments and book some time with Lisa. She is a great resource on top of the other resources available to you as a scholar at Penn State, from your home college or campus, from the Bank of America Career Services Building here at University Park. So just when I put in a shameless plot for that resource. And if you are a prospective student listening, these are the kind of things that can be available to you if you end up coming to the shriire honors College. Yeah, so I remember, like I said, I interviewed like I think it was like I was going to a wedding or something and I like stopped up at the office just so interview. It was like a crazy time and I remember Kat like we connected over our like shryer experience meet like mutually, I guess her she said she was shryer. She didn't. She didn't explain the difference to me between the university scholar program that's summer, like I was very new, like I said, I hadn't had any other legal experience and so she she was really great at explaining very probably rudimentary concepts to me at the time that any person who had taken a basic legal class probably would have known. So but I think, just like in general, like that initial connection really helped because I felt comfortable like going in and asking questions and she was very, very great at explaining probably really dumb questions back to me and just in general, like the the work that I got was super great. It really made me think differently and again I had it had legal training, so it opened up an entirely different world to me. That eventually pushed me to go to all school and you know, during the summer she would ask me like, oh, are you do you want to go to law school, like are you thinking about it? And I just remember me like, Oh, I don't know, like it's still like two years away, like I haven't really thought about it. But...

I ended up going back the following summer because another internship ended up falling through and that was when I really started considering it, because that's the second summer I got more complex work and I was doing work that was more more like, I don't know what the word is. It was better, it was it was more involved. What we had a pure legal quit about a week after keeping back and so I made her apparently to the summer, which is entirely different to being an intern. Yeah, so that that there was that just in general, like I felt that second summer. It was everything was second nature, you know, like we knew each other. We go to lunch and talk about, you know, law school, we talked about the world, we talked about work and it was just a really comforting experience. But I also challenging because I got to do complex projects and I had the confidence of a boss who knew I could do them and was you know, even if I made a mistake, you know she would just correct it and show me what I did wrong and you know I would definitely put that in my back pocket because I'm not going to do that again. But that that give and take, you know, the the ability for someone to have confidence in you and and you wanting to do better the next time. That is like so key to, I think, a good working relationship, regardless of of mentor men te but like that was a really solid foundation that we were able to build. So, Kate Cat was your supervisor for two summers, but obviously we're here today, years later, talking. So how did you go about maintaining that relationship over the past few years once you were no longer an intern or a suddenly promoted paralegal? It's hard for me to say because I feel like we honestly, it was like it wasn't really like I had to maintain it, it just was always there. You know, we email each other like every couple months. You know, hey, how's it going? How School, House work? You know, that kind of stuff. But then, you know, I think what really happened was when I realized that I wasn't happy at my job as an engineer, I reached out to her for advice specifically on how to handle a couple things that came up, and, you know, she was very helpful. She was she listened to me, which for anybody who wants to be a good mentor, like, I think listening is like the most important skill that you can have, even as a leader. You know, actually listening to someone's problems is so important, and I think that's sort of when I started getting serious about going to law school and applying and you know, I was asking her a lot more. I was asking, I was getting in touch with her more regularly just because I had so many questions and didn't know what to do. And you know that's I guess. I guess the the answer to your question, Shawn, is more that you shouldn't really have to maintain a relationship. I feel like if you build it correctly, it should it should be there such that you don't need to think about how to maintain it. It should just be there, you know, constantly. Cat, what are your perspectives on this? No, I think heat made a lot of good points. You shouldn't have to main UN it are our relationship grew kind of organically and I don't know that either was really worked at it or gave it much thought. It's just sort of how it went and I don't know if that's just our personality ways or the where we were in our lives at that point or whatever, but it's been what pat six, seven years at this point, a while seven dry, I don't know, something like that mean. I've had mentor quote, formal mentor assignments from Liberal or as college before and some of them have been great and some of them have been one or two meetings and that's it. And so the relationship with the Mente varies a lot depending on what the men tea wants to write. So sometimes a mint is looking for a long term supporters. Sometimes a ment you just need someone to bounce a couple...

...of ideas off of and then can go on their marry way, and that's okay. All of those. All of those are fine. So it's really if you're looking for a long term mentor you need to find someone that you can really Mesh with. I think Kate and I've benefited from the fact that we both were on the western side of the state and so we actually just see each other once in a while. It's sometimes it's hard to have a conversation over the phone or over zoomed. That would be easier to have in person, right and sometimes it's just easier to sit down over a coffee or a cocktail and say look, here's a situation. You're like, okay, well, let's talk about it, right. So Kate and I will go to dinner and spend three or four hours at dinner just going over whatever, and I think the relationship is kind of gone both ways at this point. No, it's actually it's nice for me to have a Mente who's fifteen, twenty years younger than me, because now I can come to her and say, okay, this is what's going on with a staff member who's about your age. What's your perspective on that? And she'll tell me, well, you know, this is what she would do and why she's would do in okay, what that makes a little more sense. It's so it helps me understand. It helps me understand that, you know, it gives me another perspective, one things which is important. So I think mentoring is going both ways at this point and that's important, I think, to the long term relationship to so, okay, you mentioned that there's different types of mentoring. There's, you know, maybe you have one or two conversations, even something like this podcast, which is trying of an on demand tea up for scholars to reach out to folks afterwards and get a little bit of insight, and then there's also these long term relationships. And something you and I can't particularly have talked about many times through the scholar alumnie society is the value of mentoring. What is that value? Proposition for scholars, and particularly for first generation scholars who may not have had an exposure to this topic before. First cat and then Kate. You can add your thoughts then. Why is mentorships so important for students? So I never really had a fore moment or I had a number of teachers and professors who, for short periods of time, we're very influential in my life, but I've never had this word of relationship that K and I have. So it's it's hard for me to say when and how you should start something like that. I don't really have a good answer to that. But the value to it is even those short term relationships that I had is you need someone to bounce an idea off. But once in a well, and I know that a munch twenty year olds think that they know how the world works, but when you're twenty you don't. Sorry, perfective of forty odd, but that's just what it is, right. I mean at forty I don't know how the old wars. So you're always learning. You constantly need someone a little older, a little wiser, who's been there done that, to say it's that really the direction you want to go? And so even having short the short term relationships that I had, being able to sit down at that writing professor and saying I don't really know what I want to do and for him to say well, go try working for a lot of parmacy if that's what you want to do. That wasn't valuable. If that changed my life. I think the reason that I got to that summer program that taught me about the honors college was because a teacher high school told me about it. I can't imagine how else I would have learned about that summer program and so cultivating relationships with your teachers, your professors, with your managers, with other people in your in your workplace, wherever it is it you're finding. It was scout leaders, you know whatever. Those are important. Those are important. You never know what conversation is going to get stuck in your head and really drive the direction of something that you're trying to do. And so you don't have to go looking specifically for a mentor. You don't have to be in a formal program. You're going to run across them. You just need to recognize them when you find them. Yeah, I can think of a couple of people who have been that been that person for me as I look back on like school and work. You know, I remember a high school teacher I had that taught coding classes and he recognized that I was not doing my best. You know, I would do enough to submit the assignment and and that was sufficient, but he was like, you know, what are you do? Like you can do so much...

...better than this. Why? Why are you just, you know, not not going to your best potential? And I remember like that conversation and thinking like, you know, he's right, like why am I doing this? And you know, just a relationship like that, someone that I actually still talk to as an adult, you know, the like those little ones that crop up. But then I totally agree with cat like your I think, the benefit of seeking them out in your everyday life, or not even seeking them out but just recognizing them, like she said. I think that is that's the best way, because the organic relationship, I think, is so fundamental. It's like the difference between like, I don't know, meeting someone on a dating APP and like, you know, meeting someone in real life. I don't know, I can say that because I met my boyfriend on a dating APP. So no shame there. I do. I don't know. I think the organic part of it is really important because that way you kind of get to know the person in a really unique way, but also there's no shame in seeking out. You know, hey, I really don't understand how to navigate this part of my young adult life. I don't know how to apply to law school, I don't know how to do better in interviews, I don't know how to do that. And you know, you go to Shriyer and you say I need to connect with an alumni who who can help me with this, because they're in the real world and I'm still in school and having that resource, I mean it's just amazing, like I can't I don't know what I would have done without having those people in my life to sort of navigate me through maybe something I didn't even know was plaguing me. Yeah, the formal programs are useful for things like, you know, I'm a student or I'm a young professional and I don't know how to handle this particular program or this particular problem or whatever this issue is. What do I do? And if you don't have someone in your life that you can go to and say, I don't do with this. You know my managers doing this thing. I don't know how to handle it and you're not out of workplace where you can go talk to someone else, some other manager right for instance. It's okay, it's great, but alow my association is great for that. Reach out people to the alumni association or just try or whoever and say, look, I've got this issue, I want to talk to another professional who's been dealing with this and you always hope you up and I've talked to I know a dozen students over the year who have come to me with one or two issues that they just want to talk about for a couple of weeks, and those are great because are great relationships. It's Nice from the mentor perspective to help someone sort of think through a problem and it's great from the student or the young professional perspective to say, okay, well, now I have an objective outside you to really help me think. This true because I find a lot of times, even when I'm doing this, I'm asking people around me. Okay, I've got this issue, what do I do? It's sort of an informal ment worship, if you want to call it that. You know, it's great to just have someone like to balance a problem off of and it's great to have someone who doesn't know you, doesn't know the company, doesn't know anyone involved, has such an objective view to it to really say, okay, well, you're thinking about it this play, but maybe you're putting a little emotion into it and maybe you should pull that back a little bit. You know, you're a twelve, I need you were two six, and so it's good to have someone really call you on your nonsense. You know, it's good. It's good to have that sort of outside, objective perspective. I think that's the really the most valuable thing you can get moment. WOR So, cat this there's questions for you. If you're a student listening, eventually you're going to graduate and you're going to grow up and maybe you're in a lum listening, and even if you're still a student who's maybe an upper division student, you can mentor first and second year students. So, cat, what are your suggestions for being an effective mentor? You need to listen. Mean for anything in life, you need to listen and then you need to really give it some thought. Right. So you need to listen. You need to accept that whatever the student is telling you or whatever the younger professional is telling you, is is true to them, whatever it is, even if you're looking at it going Gosh, you're you're so young and you have no perspective, you know, sometimes it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. That's their experience and you need to just live with it and so you need to listen, understand except...

...and then just help them walk through it. I find that I don't spend a lot of time saying you should do this, you should do that, because that's my experience. That's not their experience. So what I do is I ask a lot of questions. What do you think you should do about it? Well, how does that work? If you're going to do a then how do you think that's going to interactive be? How do you think that's going to affect your ability to continue this hobby that you really seem to enjoy? Or that's going to mean? That means you're going to have to move cities. Are you okay with that? You know, that's sort of thing. The benefit of being out of school for as long as I've been and then talking to students is students sometimes don't understand everything that goes into moving to another city right or everything that goes into applying to Grad School, and so you can pose questions to them that they haven't thought of, and that's the benefit of being the more experienced person in the relationship. So I think that those are the most important things you need to do as a mentor. You need to listen, you need to accept what they're talking about and then just not impose your advice but more sort of guide them the way that you think, at least down a path that helps something through the process of better obviously, Kate, I would love your perspective on how can you be a very effective mentee and make the most of these either one off or long term relationships with faults who have a little bit more world experience than you do. I think the biggest thing is to be prepared to accept advice that you don't want to hear. I think it's really easy to come into a situation and think I'm right, like in a situation where maybe you have a problem, instead of I don't know what I'm doing kind of thing, it's easy to come into a situation to say I'm right, you know, like I'm looking for validation and this older more experienced person is going to validate my worldview, and I think that's kind of the wrong way to approach it. You're much better off listening. Again, listening is important. Listening to the mentor tell you things that maybe aren't popular with you. Know How you proceed the world or what you're experience has been thus far, but it's really important for you to understand that they're coming at it from, you know, years and maybe decades of experience that you don't have, and you know you don't have to listen or you don't have to follow that advice. You know you can make your own decision, but you need to be prepared to accept what they're saying and have some internal process where you're weighing that in those interests. You know there's a reason they're telling you what they're telling you, and there's also a reason you ask them. You know you're you're looking maybe for validation, but also you know that there's another side to this that you might not be aware of. I would say that you know, going in with an open mind is probably the biggest thing and being prepared to accept you know that there are alternative views on maybe the problem that you're experiencing or something you haven't thought of before, and it's really key to you know, take that to heart. Knowing that I have an attorney and an Ael on here with me, I'd love to just get some perspectives on the legal profession, on law school from you both. So, Kate, you're living it right now. You're a three l you're at Dukane, you're in you're in your third year, you're getting ready for job hunting. If you're having already, you're getting ready for the bar. What advice for somebody who just lived through law school during a global pandemic? Do you have for students and other than I we talked earlier about taking a gap year or two and getting real world experience once you're in law school. What suggestions do you have for students who were looking down this path? I think selfdiscipline is like the most important thing for a law student. It's it's hard because law school is like high school. It is just a it's a hundred people that you know are being pitted against each other and that's just the way it is and it's tough. It's tough on your mental health, it's tough on your relationships that you form with people, but you have to come up with a plan and you have to stick to it. My one El Year before the pandemic, I would get up every day I...

...go to the gym at like six o'clock because that was the only time I could fit in a workout, and then I would study until like ten o'clock at night. It sucked. It was the worst thing ever, but it brought me, you know, a very good first year and I learned a lot and I was able to, you know, use that to get a job or get an internship. But then when the pandemic hit, that changed a lot. You know, there was no gym, I could go to it at any time of the day because they were all closed, and all of my classes were suddenly online and it was a lot harder to pay attention because you know, your phone's there and you professor isn't there to yell at you whenever you're using it. So that was that was really difficult. I think that with a pandemic aspect of law school, it's definitely changing a lot. More things are going to be online, even as a third year, and you know, kind of not really sure where the pandemic is going at this point still classes that are online. I think gets valuable because it gives you more flexibility, but that with that flexibility comes great responsibility. You have to still be disciplined. You have to be willing to put your phone down for an hour and listen to your professor talk, even if it's through a screen, and you have to absolutely set aside four to five hours on a day you don't have class and just make sure you're reviewing all of your notes, making outlines, you know, whatever it is you want to do. But I'll say this. You know, even with that, even with all of that work, I still have most of my weekends or free time to do what I want to do, and that's also really important is, you know, giving yourself some time off so that you don't hate your life completely. I make it sound like law schools really awful, but it is really fun. You learn so much and you know I'll be glad when it's over, but I also feel like it's just been a really cool experience and you know you'll never be in it again, so enjoy it while you can. And I think you could say the same of Undergrad to you know you're you're an UNDERGRAD student onces. So make the most of your your experience here, and then, if you go to law school or medical school or another graduate program make the most of that, because you only do it once. Now, cat, you probably guess what I'm going to ask. You've been practicing law for nearly twenty years. You've seen some things. What perspectives can you briefly offer to scholars who are looking at the law school law track here on following the Gom today? My first recommendation is to take as many writing classes as you can. I cannot under state importance of being able to write clearly, coherently consistently. It's you're going to spend your rest of your life writing, you might as well figure out how to do it well. And it drives me nuts when I get a contract from like I have no idea what this since needs or the sense went on for a literally a page and a half. Stop it, just stop it. You know it's greatly so right, right, right to every opportunity you have to write. I would also say a lot of law is figuring out where the money is, and so taking any conclass or a finance class or accounting or however it is that you want to figure that out looking in valuable to and then, beyond that, take whatever experience you want. Right I don't think that there's one way to get into law school, there's no one way to go through law school and there's no one way to practice law. You can do a lot of things, for a law degree is very versatile, which is good and dangerous. You can get to law school and say I'm don't want to do it, this thing and then just to have you be, you know, way word about it when you come out. You need some sort of plan, even if it's not a good plan, to have a plan to start with and then it's okay, change your plan, that's fine, but you need to come into law school thinking, okay, I don't want to do any sort of criminal law or I only want to do whatever, and you're going to change your mind and that's okay because you're going to take a really cool class and do some really neat cases with they're really awesome professor and then you're going, you know, come on lawns, so that I want to do this for the rest of my life. But it's also important to understand what you're getting into at the end rate, and so if you want to go do...

...public law, that's awesome. There are people need to do that. People need to go be public defenders, they need to be DAS, they need to be working at legal services. Mean those people are necessary and important. They make no money. So be prepared for that. If you want to go work at a law firm creat that's your prerogative. You want to work at big law, that's cool. You're going to make a boatload of cash. You're also in to sell your soul to do that. So and then there's a, you know, a large range in between, and so you need to really understand what you're getting into. So ask a lot, a lot of questions. Lawyers Love to talk and they love to give advice. Go Talk to a couple of law from furtherners before you go to law school. Go have lunch with the DA, take the public defender to lunch, for coffee, you know, do those sorts of things. We love to do that. Go to a Bar Association meeting. Find Your Local County Bar Association, find out when they're having their local bench bar program and go. Lawyers love that. So it's good to have a lot of perspective of a lot of different things. When you come in, because there's a lot of options. You could also do things that are not lawyer at all. Right, go be a politician, go teach, go to the military. Do you know research with that law degree? I know a lot of lawyers, fair handful lawyers, who then turn around and go to med school or do medical things. You know now they're nurses and jades. Those people make a concillion dollars being expert witnesses at medical now practice lawsuits. You know, there are a lot of ways to use your jad be created of don't be afraid. There's always an awestion just here. There's into that came to my mind where you could be an agent for a performer or an athlete or even false here at pen state, who help with something we call gift planning, which is when you put pain state in your will. There's a huge legal element to that. And, Kate, I saw you raise your hands, so I want to turn the floor back over to you. I just wanted to say one thing that Kat mentioned. You know, when you when you are a law student who hasn't had a real job, like a full time job, between Undergrad in law school, I think it's really hard to miss or sorry. It's really easy to miss the like what do I want to do with my life, and what does what does I want? What do I want to do with my life, and how does that impact what I want from my life? As someone who work for from a few years, I understand what it's like to not have weekends available to you, like the job that I had. Sometimes I missed a BACHELORTTE party once and it was I felt really bad about it, you know, like those kinds of things. Those are really important when you're working, you know, at a government job, most of the time you're going to be working nine to five, you're going to be working for hours a week, your pay isn't going to be that great, your benefits are going to be awesome and you know your but your your life will be there. And the same thing goes for law firms. Like if you want to make a lot of money, and you know I really big house and do those things, that's awesome, but you need to understand that you know, that might take away time for you to spend with your kids or your dog, you know, or go on vacation. You know, even though you're earning a lot of money, you don't necessarily have time to use a lot of it. So I just think having that perspective on, you know, what you can do with your life and what you want from your life. Those are two like sometimes they're at odds with each other and you really need to understand that going in and somebody who has worked. You're going to have that experience because you know someone who hasn't they see, you know, a salary at two HUNDREDZERO dollars out of law school and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe that, that's crazy. But what they don't understand is maybe they're going to be spending ninety hours a week at the firm. So just just some some practical advice. then. Nothing to keep in mind is that legal skills or legal skills and they're really versatile and you can take them other places. Right. So, if you want to start out at a law firm making it a Jillion dollars and you get three years into it and your exhausted because you haven't slept for three years and then you want to quit and go be a day you can do that. You can take your degree and go do something else. So don't feel like you're locked into whatever it is that you're doing. It's not written...

...in stone, and even if it was, just drop the stone right just you. You can go do something else with it. It's okay, really good advice. We're in the tail end of our conversation here, all right. We're going to do some rapid fire questions here at the end. First I want to know what is your biggest success to date. Feel free to Brag as much as you want right here. Biggest success to day professionally is dragging my current law department out of the Eighteenth Century and into the twenty one century. So we now have a legal operation. She's almost backbone to our department. It took me a decade to do but it's on wait. We everyone loves it and that's was a lot of work, but it was definitely worth it, I guess. For me I don't really have like this great professional career, but I did recently pass the patent bar exam, which has like a really low pass rate. It's like Super Bad, like in the thirty percent, and I want to Brag that I did that while my cat was dying and it was miserable, but I still did it and I don't have to take it again. So I'm very happy. Well, my condolences on your cat. Never easy to lose a pet, but congratulations on passing that exam. I think that builds well for the actual bar down the road. The flip side of that question is what is the biggest transformational moment, you might call it a mistake, that you had so far, either as a student as a professional, and what did you learn from it? All right, so when I looked at this question when you posed it earlier this week, I had sort of a different bent to it. So I'm going to answer it's slightly differently than maybe you just answered it you just asked it now, but I'm looking at it kind of as my biggest failure and what I learned from it. So professionally, this is going way back. So my very first job, when I was fourteen, was at a little stand and so ice cream and hot dogs and you know. And so we had a down period at one point in the owner says, okay, I'm going to go do whatever was it she was going to go. Do you guys need to take down those soft Serb ice cream which you clean it out while with that this period where we've thinking with me to show up. Here's the instructions. I'll back in an hour. So I and my probably sixteen year old co worker followed the instructions. Clean it all out, get exactly what she told us to do, to not dont all the stuff back in. Turned it on when about our lives. Didn't really think it through right. You followed the instructions and that's all you did. So a couple hours later the softball team shows up, or little league or whatever it was, wants ice cream for everybody and we couldn't do it because we hadn't plugged machine back in because the instructions didn't say plug it back in. So here's my lesson from that. It doesn't matter what the instructions say. You have to think about it. We cannot just blindly follow whatever rules are. This is tough. I when I looked at this question, I not because I've never failed. Obviously I failed, but it's tough to answer because I think there's a lot of experiences that you can draw from that don't result in total failure. But the biggest one I can think of is when I started my first real job out of college, I didn't understand the importance of speaking up and making sure that I was known. And I actually had a conversation that was not good with, you know, people who worked with me who are trying to tell me that I needed to, you know, make myself known in the company and I needed to I don't know what the word is, but I just I needed to make them aware that I existed and I think it's easy when you're young to want to disappear and kind of learn from people around you by watching. But I think they were right and I was very upset when they when they brought this information to me, and they were like, you know, you really need to speak up and you really need to be loud, and I was like, I don't like that, I like to be quiet, but I think they were right. Looking back on it, even just like a few years later, I remember being very upset. But what...

I didn't get from that conversation would have if I would have got into it with an open mind, is that I should have I should have taken their advice and realize that it benefits me to be involved, even if I'm going to make a mistake as a young person, even if I'm going to say the wrong thing even if I'm gonna ask a question that is kind of dumb, I'm going to learn from that and people are going to know who I am and they're going to be able to work with me better. And so I would say, like you know, it's sucked. At the time it was really bad, but now you know, as an adults, as a more, I guess, older adult, I look back on that and I think, you know, hey, I should have. I should have taken that advice. I should have should have made myself known and let people know who I was. I think there was also another piece of advice in there, which was your co workers were trying to help you and coming into that with an open mind as well always did. To pipe up and cat, I love your story about the ice cream machine. Sometimes it's the most basic piece. There's the assumption in those instructions that you've already plugged it in. So think about what those implicit assumptions are in any circumstance. Quick question for you as attorneys or rising attorneys. How do you find work life balance? Any tips for scholars and Future Law Students? That's going to vary from job the job, right. So one of the things you need to do is put up your own rails. So if you don't want to answer emails after seven PM, then don't answer emails after seven PM. But if you decide you're going to answer emails after seven PM, then that's the way it's going to be. Right. So once you set that expectation, that expectation is there, and I know that's hard when you're first starting out and that's going to be hard if you're working at a big law farm. It's going to be hard if you're, you know, at a startup. But those are the tradeoffs for the job that you're in and so you need to figure out in your job where you can put those rails and then how those rails are bestment to benefit your life, and then you need to hire her help. I'm going to come at this from a different angle. I think you need to make the people in your life aware of your responsibilities. As you know, an attorney or a law student in my case. You know my family has never had someone go to law school. They didn't understand that I can't talk to them for like two weeks during final and SAM's. It's not like it's not like Undergrad and I think you know sitting them down and saying like Hey, look, you know, I am not ignoring you and I'm not. You set the expectation that that what you're doing is really, really key and important and that you will not ignore them, but you will get to it at a certain time. And you know, I think if you set those expectations up early, then you know you have a better time when maybe you have to miss something really important and you know that that's tough. If you don't want to do that, like cat said, you need to set that expectation for yourself. But if you have really important things that you need to do, you need to let the people in your life know. Communication is really key and if you don't tell them these things and they just you just miss, you know, your niece's birthday party or, you know, you don't respond to text for five days and they're like do you hate me, like, what are you doing? The answers know, but you you need to let them know what's going on, and so I think that's that's also a really key part of work life balance. I think that advice from both of you boil down to setting at spectations and I think that's really helpful. Regardless of what industry you end up going into. You as the listener. Fun Question for you. Are there any professor's friends, anybody like that, that you wanted to give a shout out to hear? At the end of our conversation I will get a shout out to the entire redmant is called, you know who you are, and professor Golombo, who's the one who got me to be appear illegal. I want to give out. I want to give a shout out to professor Mike Janet. He was my chemical engineering professor who gave some really sage advice at the time when we were going to graduate. He said there's going to be floor text and people at your jobs that have worked there twenty, thirty years and you're going to be the new engineer and you're not going to know anything. So you need to listen to...

...them, even though they're maybe learning hourly wages and your salaried you need to listen to them. And that was the truth, the best advice I got going into an engineering position. That man is incredible and he deserves every award that they give him in the in and he's just incredible, very, very good advice. Again, regardless of what industry, and I think that blows down to just the penstate value of respect. Speaking of advice, do you have any last burning pieces of advice that you wanted to share that maybe didn't organically come up in our conversation over the past hour? You know just the value of asking for help when you need it, and even when you don't need to. Just ask. It's okay. It's taking me voice on yours to learn that lesson, but it's important. You know, ask, just ask. It's okay, people will answer your questions. They're usually happy to answer your questions. Just ask. Along cats, cats. Advice, I would say like, if you want to do something and you have no idea how to do it, that shouldn't deter you. That should just motivate you, like Hey, I can do this amazing thing that I've never done before. It's going to be awesome and I might screw up, but so what? I get to do it. That's how I feel every day as a law student. I'm like I can't believe I'm here, like this is what I wanted to do for so long and I'm so happy, even if I make a million mistakes, I'm here and so go to law school, but only if you want to. If scholar wanted to reach out to either of you to ask for help, ask for that advice. Keep this conversation going. Well, pass to the end of the podcast episode. How could they connect with either of you? You find me on Linkedin. Same Linkedin's great and if you're a regular listener, you know the last question that we're about to ask here. If each of you were a flavor of Burkie creamery ice cream, which would you be? In most importantly, as scholar alumni, why would you be that flavor? So I thought about this and I think that I would be butter pecan, because it's an old sort of traditional flavor and I'm an old sport traditional soul. I'll do all kinds of crazy things. I am. You're crazy than your friend. No one knows that, but I am. But at the end of the day I want to come home to some parterfn. I want the soft serve vanilla with the blue and white sprinkles, because it's classic, but it's also like it's the best. I if I had to pick an actual flavor, I would be scholar chip, just because I think that's the most awesome play on words. Ever, know, at the end of the day, I'm kind of like cat. I want my soft serve with the blue and white sprinkles and I won't mix it. I promise. I will put chocolate in there. If you're going to have the soft serve, just made sure that cat plubs the machine in first, otherwise you won't get your soft serve on time. Very good, Cat Kate. Thank you both so much for spending the past hour with us. I hope you would listening got something out of this. I know I did. Really appreciate all of your sage, insight and advice, not just on the legal profession but, more importantly, the value of mentoring and how to go about doing that right. So thank you both. Thanks for having me. Thank you, scholars, for listening and learning with us today. We hope you will take something with you that will contribute to how you shape the world. This show probably supports the Shure Honors College Emergency Fund Benefiting Scholars experiencing unexpected financial hardship. You can make a difference at rays dot PSU DOT edu, forward slash shreire. Please be sure to hit the relevance, subscribe, like or follow button on whichever platform you are engaging with us on today. You can follow the college on Facebook, twitter, instagram and Linkedin to say uptodate on news events and deadlines. If you have questions about the show or a scholar alum who'd like to join us as a guest here on following the gone, please connect with me at scholar alumni at PSU DOT edu. Until next time, please stay well and we are.

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